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Pets
Sept 27, 2004 2:48:38 GMT
Post by Chirugal on Sept 27, 2004 2:48:38 GMT
How much mek do you think could be loaded into a Pet before it ceased to become human? Opinions, people...
This question stemmed from a fic on the LJ community by butterflythread, concerning a Pet who had no heart and felt that because of this she had no soul.
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Pets
Sept 27, 2004 21:20:28 GMT
Post by Cj on Sept 27, 2004 21:20:28 GMT
i'm not sure, i dont think its even anything in the human body that can actually make you feel human, its something else, what that is i dont know, but thats what i think anyways, we make ourselves human
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Pets
Sept 28, 2004 1:01:37 GMT
Post by Chirugal on Sept 28, 2004 1:01:37 GMT
*philosophises* So it's actions and emotions rather than actual body parts... though it must be a little demoralising for them to not have stuff like hearts.
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Pets
Sept 28, 2004 2:14:48 GMT
Post by Mouse on Sept 28, 2004 2:14:48 GMT
Oooh, I gotta get my two cents in here. ;D
I think Cj is pretty much spot on... it's your actions and your thoughts that give you your humanity. You could be a 100% organic human, and be so horrible that nobody'd do you the grace of calling you human. On the other hand, you could be almost entirely mek and be more human than others with less/no mek.
Of course, if a Pet has the notion that humanity is in being organic, in having a heart and lungs and whatever, then it's going to mess them up a bit. It's something I intend to deal with as a major issue of the fic as it goes on... Evy's gradual realisation that her mek doesn't stop her from being human, that being human or not is in her perception and her actions.
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Pets
Sept 28, 2004 10:44:18 GMT
Post by Chirugal on Sept 28, 2004 10:44:18 GMT
Poor little fucked-up Pets...
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Pets
Sept 28, 2004 18:27:56 GMT
Post by Cj on Sept 28, 2004 18:27:56 GMT
I thinks Mouse is right the world tells you you must be organic to be human (just like it tells you so many things that are often lies! ) but heres the fun in life we gotta figure it all out, and i guess the figuring kinda makes you human too this is almost hitting off the soul question and if its just the mind or some kind of spirit!!!!
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Pets
Sept 28, 2004 18:48:28 GMT
Post by Chirugal on Sept 28, 2004 18:48:28 GMT
I love philosophy... ;D I think it'll be interesting to see what Marianne reckons.
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Pets
Sept 28, 2004 19:12:45 GMT
Post by Cj on Sept 28, 2004 19:12:45 GMT
I love Philosophy, i want to study it, but i think i'll leave it till a time i can aford to study it
i love all the eastern philosophy! especially confucious and Lao Tzu, the paradox about water being strong because over time its wears down so even though it is soft it is ultimately strong
i like that one,
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Pets
Sept 28, 2004 23:18:48 GMT
Post by Chirugal on Sept 28, 2004 23:18:48 GMT
Ooh, yeah... that's cool.
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Mad Max
Tert Player
BLAM, STOP!! BLAM, BLAM. OR I'LL SHOOT
Posts: 117
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Pets
Dec 22, 2004 4:43:13 GMT
Post by Mad Max on Dec 22, 2004 4:43:13 GMT
If you look at the variety of role playing systems out there that dealt with such issues (Shadow Run + Cyber Punk to name but two). They work on the concept that the human soul was encompased throughout the body and as more and more of it was replaced with Mek or tech then the more detached one became with their interactions towards others. Empathy and other "normal" emotional responses went by the way side and they became more and more detatached from reality and humanity until one of two things occured.
Either the poor SOB went nuts by either falling into depression and wasting away or in the case of Cyberpunk the classic Cyberpsycho where rage and psychosis takes over and theres no hope left for the victim other then either deletion or removal of his tech until he recovers some of their humanity.
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Pets
Dec 29, 2004 21:26:33 GMT
Post by marianne on Dec 29, 2004 21:26:33 GMT
Hello IDC, another Brisbanite! Welcome.
As soon as you start interfering with the mind/body interface then a question mark pops up over our humanity... in which case drugs - legal and illegal - could be classed as dehumanising. What do you all think?
MDP
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Pets
Dec 30, 2004 1:33:33 GMT
Post by Mouse on Dec 30, 2004 1:33:33 GMT
Interesting concept that. You could take it a bit further and say as soon as we mess with the way nature intended things to be we lose humanity. Things like plastic surgery, is that dehumanising? Modern society in general isn't very natural, are we even human any more? Think The Village, if you've seen it you'll know what I mean (I don't want to spoil it). Who was more human? It always comes back to thoughts and actions as far as I'm concerned. If drugs incite you to steal or lie or whatever, behave badly, then they're dehumanising. Humanity's in the heart and soul and comes through in actions, that's what I think. If what happens/you do to your body doesn't affect the way you think adversely, then it's not dehumanising. So some drugs would probably be dehumanising, yeah. *ramble*: finished
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Mad Max
Tert Player
BLAM, STOP!! BLAM, BLAM. OR I'LL SHOOT
Posts: 117
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Pets
Dec 30, 2004 14:59:33 GMT
Post by Mad Max on Dec 30, 2004 14:59:33 GMT
Along the lines of both Marianne (hi by the way) Mouse's comments the point could also be made that interference by de-humanising aspects don't necessarily need to be invasive to do their jobs.
My personal ideas of sci fi is the same as lying (stay with me there is a point), as in all good lies contain a kernal of truth, so as sci fi, I feel should contain a kernal of reality to it.
So after all that lets take things like interacive TV and Video Consols to the 'nth degree. Lets make them interact directly with the cerebellum thru either a skull cap or a plug in jack. What happens to those people where the game world becomes more entising then the real world.
What happens then? Is it like Marianne's NE sims or does the brain become "addicted" to the over stimulation? Say they started early enough like 3-5 year olds who X-Box (see look its a verb, its starting already) instead of going outside to play, you can't tell me if they keep that behaviour throughout their development that they will socialise normally.
The de-humanising aspect of society generally and the advent of more sophisiticated technology basically means we as human beings don't need to go thru life any more "talking" (interacting, getting along) with anyone. Thus behaviour or more the point behaviour needed to interact with the rest of society can be missed or just never learnt. And then we have 7 year olds taking guns to kindergarden and shooting little girls. Certainly seems de-humanising to me.
And don't get me started on the sexual aspect, I have friends who have oppenly stated they'd rather be dead then be without their sex lives.
Now that begs the question of psycho analysis of participants for full body conversions and job specific conversions. Think about say deep sea diver full conversion(no aqua lung no bends), fire fighter full conversion (no air tank, no skin to burn, steel chassis and skin takes a lot of burning). You'd need some pretty understanding husbands and wives, would the body include working genetalia. How could one be intimate with chromed or plastic skin. Would the job forgo all other aspects of human contact, could we as human beings (who are already biggoted enough on the issue of skin colour) maintain a society where full bionic replacement would ever be excepted in a social circumstance? Not to mention Police and Millitary types who are fairly gung ho in the first place, would they no longer be able to interact, or would they stay to their "own kind" who understood what they where going thru?
Then you've got the body mod types, Beverly Hills types, why bother with diets and lipo suction and scars just have a body that never ages (just requires the odd service). The conversion would be one of beauty and presentation so the body would need to be perfect in all aspects. Body Image taken to the nth degree.
Last but not least, say the body becomes superfluous altogether and the brain could become imprinted electronically, does that also pass on the "soul" or is the soul nothing more then higher reasoning. Is the soul nothing more then our subconscious or maybe the Id or super ego? The ability to think granting us the ability to reason and then to reason there must be more than merely existing to procreate and continue the species for its own sake. It works that way for every other species on the planet why should it be different for us just because we can think (supposedly)?
I could go on and on and on (trust me I could) but I have already gone off topic enough as it is. So I'll stop there.
No offence Mouse but this was a rant!!! I'm mistaken thats not a rant thats an essay.
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Pets
Jan 6, 2005 23:49:32 GMT
Post by Chirugal on Jan 6, 2005 23:49:32 GMT
It's pretty disturbing when you think about it... if you let it go that far, is taking any kind of medication at all dehumanising?
I don't think I believe in the soul, but if I did then think of the religious aspect this debate would bring... "Don't play computer games/use the Internet, or your soul is damned to hell..."
Wait... they probably say that already...
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Pets
Jan 7, 2005 1:06:09 GMT
Post by Mouse on Jan 7, 2005 1:06:09 GMT
I am so damned... Well, I believe in the soul, and... oh you all know what I think about this by now. Nothing external affects your soul unless you let it, etc etc, so on so forth.
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